Hello and welcome to episode 25, about living with progressive MS. An interview with disability advocate Mark Webb, who is known for his loud voice when it comes to bringing people who are living with a disability, or perhaps different in some other way, into society and not leaving them on the sidelines. I’m very proud and glad that he took the time. And now enjoy the interview.
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Table of Contents
Introduction - Who is Mark Webb?
Nele Handwerker: Hello, Mark? It’s such a pleasure to have you on the show and to talk to you again and a warm welcome to the UK. #00:00:36#
Mark Webb: Well, thank you very much for the invitation. We met, I don’t know, about 300 years ago, something like that. #00:00:41#
Nele Handwerker: I’m not that old. Maybe you are, but I’m not. #00:00:46#
Mark Webb: Yeah. But so, it is just nice to talk again anyway. #00:00:50#
Personal experiences and coping strategies
As someone living with progressive MS, how has your personal journey influenced your perspectives on diversity and accessibility within our society?
Nele Handwerker: Absolutely. And, yeah, can you maybe talk…I mean, at the beginning we want to talk about a bit your personal experiences and coping strategies, before we go into the details of living with a progressive MS in the UK. How has your personal journey influenced your perspective on diversity, inclusion and accessibility within our society? #00:01:14#
Mark Webb: I guess not great in a sense that my experience of it. I’m a pretty much full-time wheelchair user. And I have a suprapubic catheter, so that’s a tube that goes into my tummy. And I’m now holding up a bag of wee that I pull wee out of. So I need accessibility on multiple levels, and I just was not aware of the challenges faced by disabled people or advanced MS people. So hugely aware now, and I can remember in the…I was at school in the 70s and 80s. And one of the phrases to abuse someone was to call them a spas, as in spastic. And now, of course, I have spasm. So I’ve gone from this, you know, normal schoolboy, immortal kid, to being very aware. And I thank having advanced MS. I’ve moved on from speaking purely about MS. I talk about disability as a topic and diversity as a topic. Those two things I’m almost more passionate about than just MS. #00:02:48#
Nele Handwerker: Yes. I mean, and you have unfortunately all these direct impressions. And on LinkedIn, you always post the positive post of the day, which is very nice. And I mean, you are able to put some humor on it, on the…not so funny parts of living with progressive MS. Maybe you can share some experiences.
In your experience, what are some of the most effective coping strategies or self-care practices for managing the daily challenges of living with MS?
Mark Webb: Yeah. I think that there’s some very basic ones that any good neurologist will tell you that’s to stay active. However, whatever level you are to eat healthily. I don’t follow a specific diet, but I do avoid all processed foods. So no more bacon, no more sausages. Very sad. #00:03:48#
Nele Handwerker: For you. #00:03:49#
Mark Webb: I know. So exercise, good sleep, good food, and then positive stuff, doing stuff. I’m just back from north Wales where two friends took me on the fastest skydive in the world…skydive. Sorry, zipwire in the world. I love an adrenaline rush. You know, I can’t do an adrenaline rush every day, sadly. But I just do…I call it nonsense thing. You’ve probably seen I use that word a lot. But just whatever your stage of disability, there is still stuff you can do.
I used to skydive. They won’t let me anymore. So I do indoor skydiving in a wind tunnel. Zipwire, I seem to get away with at the moment. So there’s always stuff to do. So I think that’s the coping strategy there. And then I think also I’ve been lucky in the sense that one of the symptoms that I’ve avoided; one of the few symptoms, I have a huge collection of symptoms, is depression. I’ve coped well touch wood. I know that can hit me anytime. But I just feel morally obliged and that’s not an easy way to push back on just depression. But morally obliged as a husband of 24 years and a father of two, I don’t see a choice apart from staying upbeat. So you can’t push away depression, but I just feel that I need to be happy, I need to be productive, and I also want to change the world for a better place. #00:05:50#
Nele Handwerker: Yes. And you do so. You do so. And I mean, of course depression, depression is probably a very multi-perspective thing. But I mean, being active helps at least in preventing depression to a certain amount. So that is a good thing.
How important is mental health and emotional well-being for individuals with MS, and what support is available in this regard?
Mark Webb: Yeah. So I had one of my toughest times recently in the sense that I took medical retirement. I know you’ve seen me and I look 21, but I’m actually 54. And I believe…#00:06:37#
Nele Handwerker: Oh, really? #00:06:37#
Mark Webb: …the average that people get to is about 52 or 53. But anyway, medical retirement was a huge blow to me. And that was last year. And I felt a little bit lost. And I was already public speaking, but I really picked up the pace there. So I found a purpose which was beyond retirement. And I now could charge quite a lot of money for inspirational speaking, speaking about accessibility, disability, diversity. So I think purpose is key. And I’ve already talked about family and having something to do, whether that’s collecting stamps or watching trains. Train spotting is a big hobby in the UK, not mine. But I think the purpose is huge. And then I don’t know if this word translates for you in Germany, but mindfulness. So just spending a little bit of time thinking through whether that’s meditation or just a nap, or listening to a great podcast. Just some kind of escapism because particularly with the stage my MS is at, it can be pretty overwhelming. #00:08:11#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. Absolutely.
Inclusion and accessibility
Can you share specific instances where you encountered barriers to accessibility, and how did you work to overcome them or at least try to evoke a change in mindset?
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. Absolutely. Can you maybe share some specific instances where you encountered barriers of accessibility, and how did you work to overcome them? Or at least try to evoke a change in mindset? I mean, you do that very often in the posts on LinkedIn, but maybe some specific, so people who don’t know you get an idea. #00:08:35#
Mark Webb: Yeah. So how does the UK rank in accessibility? Probably medium. We’ve just finally got a huge train line through the central London, west to east. And despite it being new and 20 years late or whatever, not all train stations are accessible, and I find that quite unbelievable. I can understand when you visit a historical monument. I was in a old castle in North Wales when I was zip wiring, which they had made relatively accessible. But modern buildings built without accessibility are just abominations. They really upset me. So in terms of getting round them, I just pick and choose. I will not trust any website that just says a restaurant or a hotel or whatever is accessible. I’ll always call them and talk through my specific needs.
Because often when you get there, the disabled loo is actually a storage place for cleaning products and highchairs. And/or the disabled loo is broken, or the lift is broken. So it’s the one-to-one conversations with people before I go anywhere. And I’m afraid I will never. I don’t think I will ever go on a train or plane again through fear the train of disabled loos. And the booking process you have to go through in the UK to ensure you can get a wheelchair on, it’s just discriminatory. And a plane, I have a very funky wheelchair that costs about 13,000 pounds. It was crowdfunded for me. And the worry about not getting it off at the other end of the flight is just terrifying. So I think it’ll be Eurostar. That’ll be the only train I’ll get. And the only way I’ll get abroad again. So you can get around it, but I’m sure at a random guess, 40% of buildings are inaccessible. Or tourist destinations and offices are inaccessible. #00:11:20#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. And I just talked to Samara Fumagalli. She was on an interview before. She’s living in Italy, where it seems to be even worse though with train connections when you are using a wheelchair. And she did some vacation in England and Ireland, and she was happy because it was better than in Italy. But of course, it always depends on your point of view.
In your advocacy efforts, what key areas do you focus on to promote inclusivity and equal opportunities for all individuals, regardless of their abilities?
Mark Webb: Yes, I do. So there’s the purple pound, is a big thing in the UK. And that is convincing people of the value of the disabled community. How much we’ve got to spend its trillions, when you think about roughly one in five people in the world are disabled. There are different stats, but it really is that much. And you think about a household. If you haven’t got an accessible website or an accessible building, you are cutting out up to a fifth of people and you are throwing away money when we’ve got a cost-of-living crisis. So I talk very much about the value of us as employees because I happen to have a brilliant experience through life as an employee. So I talk about that in a nice story, fact story process.
But then also the value of us as consumers. We are not to be parked away and felt sorry for, and either used as inspiration porn. Have you ever heard that phrase? So it’s…oh gosh, Oscar Pistorious. The guy with the man who…the South African who killed his partner, but before that was this poster boy with disability, with his blade runner. And that picture of him with a little girl also with blades and setting up to run. And we can’t all be Paralympians and we can’t all say, „Oh, bless, that’s lovely,“ without actually making any changes in society. So my topics are the value of us to society, you know, we should be in the diversity equation. And if we are not in the diversity equation, then you’re not doing diversity. We are the biggest minority larger than LGBT, larger than ethnicity, larger than everything else. So I don’t quite understand why we’re discarded or the last thought of. #00:14:32#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
How can society better understand the diverse needs and challenges faced by people with progressive MS and other disabilities?
Mark Webb: Well, I think first of all, we need to be seen and heard. So I think the media has a role to play in that. And that’s why I talk so much in public, but also on social media. I’m afraid Twitter’s getting a little bit of hard work now, thanks to the lovely Elon Musk. But on LinkedIn and on Instagram, I find a wonderful community of people. And you said to people who are not disabled yet. Now, not everybody is going to be disabled or severely disabled by MS. I don’t think you should assume that. If you do all the right stuff now, and if you take the meds that are on offer, the DMTs, the Disease Modifying Therapies is the UK word. Then you may well be fine. You may well have a walking stick when you’re 90. #00:15:56#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. I mean, my grandma doesn’t have MS, she’s just 97. And she needs her walker and her wheelchair because she’s just not energized enough to walk for a longer bit. #00:16:09#
Mark Webb: Yes, I mean…#00:16:09#
Nele Handwerker: If you are turning old enough, I think at one point you will have disabilities. #00:16:14#
Mark Webb: Yes. And that’s one of the other things that in the disabled as opposed to the MS community. One point, one way of making people aware of disability, is to call them just not yet disabled, because your grandmother is 97 and she’s now disabled. #00:16:38#
What role do you believe businesses and organizations play in creating more inclusive environments for individuals living with disabilities?
Nele Handwerker: I mean, you already mentioned it’s just leaving money on the street when you don’t do so. But how important is this that they concentrate on just creating an environment that is accessible for everybody, no matter if the person has MS and has some problems or not? #00:17:08#
Mark Webb: In the UK, we have a thing called reasonable adjustments that if we’re talking about employees that a company has to make for somebody who declares a disability. And I think we automatically think about ramps, lifts, and disabled loos. Actually, I’ve seen two numbers for what the average cost of accommodating a disabled person is. And I’ve seen 75 pounds, so that’s nothing. Or 400 pounds, that’s the price of an iPad. So it’s really nothing on average to make that change. And again, we are part of the diversity equation. And I’ve seen plenty of evidence that a more diverse company is a more successful one. So it is just so frustrating that they won’t…no, that’s unfair. Lots of companies will look after disabled people, and they’re the companies that I look out for. I’d love to tell you my sort of shortcut version of how well I was treated. But it’s just so frustrating that it’s actually an easy change. And yet there’s just some intransigence and blocking out, or people are too scared to ask us how we want help, so they don’t say anything. You lose friends, you lose colleagues who just…they look at you as a letter person. #00:18:59#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. Coming to the point of getting some awareness for people with disabilities. I mean, you have a very interesting and successful strategy of combining humor with the bad sides of living with all these disabilities. Can you maybe share how that is, because I love to see your post? But of course, if there is somebody who is whining all the time, for me, it’s hard to keep on looking for that person. I prefer to look at you where you combine it with humoristic approach. #00:19:35#
From your experiences, what are some successful strategies for raising awareness and driving positive change regarding accessibility and diversity?
Mark Webb: Yeah. I mean, that’s just luck, isn’t it? That I’ve got a humorous turn of phrase. I’ve always had jobs that have been in the public eye and you can’t public speak for 40 minutes without dropping in some, well, I call them bad jokes, but anyway jokes. And I just wear…I’m actually looking sensible now. You can see me. But I wear very loud clothes. That’s my other hallmark. And that the message there, because as a wheelchair user. And, okay, I am 54, but a young-ish wheelchair user. I’m stared at, and I just resent that so much. So my little message for wearing nonsense loud clothes and purple or green or blue hair is, „What are you staring at?“ Are you staring at the middle-aged guy wearing silly clothes? Go for it. Are you staring at somebody in a wheelchair? Sort off. That’s the basic reason. And humor, it’s just part of my coping strategy. I’m laughing at myself with others showing that I’m still leading a great life. It’s a tough life, but it’s brilliant. I have two great kids, wonderful wife, a reduced set of wonderful friends. #00:21:14#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I’ve seen so often and very nice moments you shared with your family, you shared with friends, and I think that’s such an important thing to not be too sad of what you lose. But concentrate on the things you still have, on the persons you still have around you, and enjoy life best possible. Of course, it’s always depending on your individual situation. But yeah, you do a really great job, and you are a great role model for that.
What advice do you have for individuals, communities, and policymakers seeking to implement more accessible practices and embrace diversity?
Mark Webb: Apart from booking me to public speak about accessibility, one, it’s a moral obligation. Two, it’s a legal obligation and I know you can get away with it. You know, I can’t apply for a job now having taken medical retirement. But should I apply for a job, you can easily find out from my social media that I’ve got a wheelchair. And I know there’s plenty of companies that won’t interview a wheelchair user, even though there’s supposed to be no differentiation between myself as an applicant and somebody who’s non-disabled. So I just…when did women get the vote in Germany? #00:22:59#
Nele Handwerker: Oh. I mean, I was raised in GDR. So they could do voting when I was born. I was born in 80s. My mom was always able to vote. Probably beginning of the 20th century somewhere. Unfortunately, I’m not so good with numbers. Something like, I don’t know, was it in the 20s…? #00:23:22#
Mark Webb: Yeah, that’s what it was in the UK. And that’s one of the other points I make when talking about diversity and how long it’s going to make change. It was called the suffragette movement in the UK. And these were the ladies who sometimes gave their lives and protested and whatever. And had contributed enormously to the first World War effort while the men were over in Europe, fighting some strange country, I can’t remember which one. And that gave them the power to realize that they could contribute to society and not be stuck at home if they didn’t want to. But that’s a hundred years ago, let’s say, that women won the vote, and yet we still have women having less job opportunities at senior level and being paid less. Now, the gap is closing, but it’s only slowly. And that’s how far we…I think it’s going to be way beyond my lifetime that the fight for equal footing for disabled people, for people with MS, for just our right to exist and have a good life, because we deserve one just as much as anybody else. So the fight goes on. The fight is maybe a wrong word, but campaigning is way beyond my lifetime, sadly. It won’t happen tomorrow. #00:25:01#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. Unfortunately. Maybe to look a little bit on the positive side of aspects.
Can you share personal stories of how creating accessible spaces and opportunities positively impacted your life and the lives of others with progressive MS?
Nele Handwerker: I mean, I remember a post where you went to a very expensive hotel and it was not accessible. But maybe let’s look on the ones that are really concentrating on being accessible and how it feels for you and other people with disabilities to just enjoy normal life. #00:25:34#
Mark Webb: Oh, that’s so hard. It’s like a bottle of champagne. It’s a wonderful feeling that really should be just natural. But it is that wonderful sensation that you don’t have to worry about getting to the loo, about accessing steep or steps or steep ramps, or whatever. But more than that, it’s about the people. Because often a building has been built by a lovely architect and he’s put in the nice, the sexy disabled lift and disabled loo, and clear corridors. But then when the actual staff see you roll in, they look at you like you are some kind of alien. And that’s a challenge. So it’s not just the accessibility through in physical terms, which is a challenge I face. Basically my legs don’t work. My left arm is spasming up and closing up, so I’ll give it on no technical number 4 out of 10 for strength. And this arm is about 8 or 9 out of 10. I’ve just given up playing wheelchair rugby because I was basically going around in circles with one arm. But yeah, it’s people who really make the difference, who turn accessible room into a great experience. #00:27:26#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah, totally understand that. I mean, it’s totally not comparable, but when I was living in Chicago, I think I had once a little bitsy experience of how it feels when you are looked up from everybody. When I went to a club where I was the only white person and everybody else was Afro-American, which was wonderful. Yeah, no doubt. But everybody was staring at me because I was really the only one being white going there with my cousin. And I still remember that feeling when everybody stares at you, and that was awkward. It was very, very awkward. And nobody was harming me or anything. But when people are all staring at you, very strange situation. #00:28:12#
Mark Webb: Yeah, it’s a constant. And it annoys me currently when somebody says, „What’s wrong with you?“ Which I always find a very invasive question. I just respond, what’s wrong with you? Why can’t I just get on with life? And why do you look at me, as I said, as a lesser person or as a shocking person or a pitiful person? I was asked by my carer agency today, quite a shocking question. And they said we are asking all our patients that we look after if they would like a DNR, Do Not Resuscitate signal on their hospital bed. And that’s quite scary to face imminent mortality. We’re all going to die, just to let you know. But I don’t intend to anytime soon. #00:29:16#
Nele Handwerker: No, please, please stay around. I mean, I would miss you so much, even so I never met you in person. But please, please keep on being there and being loud for everybody who is not able to stand up to all these persons who…to society and persons who are not inclusive yet.
In your vision for the future, how can society become more accommodating and welcoming for people with disabilities, promoting a truly inclusive and diverse world?
Nele Handwerker: No, please, please stay around. I mean, I would miss you so much, even so I never met you in person. But please, please keep on being there and being loud for everybody who is not able to stand up to all these persons who…to society and persons who are not inclusive yet. Can you maybe at the end of this part of our interview share your vision of how would a great and positive society with people, with welcoming people would look like to you? Even if we have it in a few, I don’t know, decades. #00:29:58#
Mark Webb: Yes. I think, you know, that MS is an autoimmune condition. And I believe there’s about 80 autoimmune conditions in total. So it’s impossible unless you are some amazing neurologist to understand every single autoimmune condition alone. And of course, there’s neurodivergence, there’s invisible disabilities, there’s progressive diseases, there’s cancer, there’s so much. So it’s impossible for someone to be totally right about everything and totally understand everything. The big difference would be when people are okay to ask questions to just say, is it okay if I push your wheelchair? Would you need me to move these chairs? Just a couple of examples. That would be the simplest thing. Is just one talk to us, please. But also just politeness and respect. Simple things, simple moves that some people just can’t manage, you know? They can be totally liberal, lovely, kind people. And for some reason, they’re too scared of us. Like, we’ve got some catching disease, which is not transmissible. #00:31:38#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. Absolutely. That’s what at least I try to show to my little one when we are…I would say, I’m so hopefully next generation will be a little bit better. Yeah, she’s a bit loud in the background all the time. Sorry for that. #00:31:54#
Mark Webb: Yeah. I mean, that’s something with MS. Every parent who has MS, you know, I think the statistics are there’s sort of 1 in 70 chances of your little one there developing MS. But I do think that by the next generation, it’ll be, „Well, bad news, you’ve got MS, but if you take this drug there’ll be a couple of side effects and you can just carry on with life.“ I think that’ll be the big change. #00:32:33#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. But one thing I always try to tell people who are afraid, living with MS, of having kids. One really big advantage I think our kids can take on, they can be really much better with soft skills and understanding other people and being open-minded and not being afraid of people with certain disabilities looking different, having different religions, whatever. Different sexual orientation, whatever there is out there. Okay. #00:33:20#
Quickfire Q&A Session
Complete the sentence: "For me, multiple sclerosis is...."
Mark Webb: Shitty, but manageable. #00:33:24#
Which website can you recommend on the topic of MS?
Mark Webb: I’m going to do a plug for my last employer, which was shift.ms. That was founded by a man with MS called George Pepper. About 13 years ago, he found that he couldn’t…he didn’t find anywhere a safe space to talk to other people. And that’s now a worldwide organization with over 50,000 members. It’s UK language but of course with Google translate, it’s fine for anybody. And the membership is literally worldwide. And there you can ask the awkward questions. I will answer about suprapubic catheter, and bowel problems, and sexual problems, and what it’s really like to have a wheelchair, what it’s like to be put to bed by carers. I will talk about these things. So shift.ms. There’s a plug. #00:34:39#
Nele Handwerker: Yes. And I will link it into show notes. And I have recommended this one a couple of times before or other people because it’s really, really a great website.
What development would you like to see in the field of multiple sclerosis in the next 5 years?
Mark Webb: Five years? #00:34:55#
Nele Handwerker: You can have two, you can have five years, and a longer distance. #00:34:59#
Mark Webb: Fine. I’m on my…I’m just about to start my second trial for drugs to help people with progressive MS, as you’re probably aware there’s very little treatment available for people with progressive MS. So I would love to see one or two treatments for progressive MS available in the next five to 10 years. I don’t know about your newspapers, but we always read about these mice who’ve been cured of something of an impersonation of MS. And that’s great news, but that basically means that if it works in humans, that’s 20 years away. So in five years, maybe hopefully one or two treatments for progressive MS. And secondly, and this is one of the other topics I talk about, technology. I’m at a stage where I know I won’t walk again in any normal sense, but there are exoskeletons and all sorts of silly, again, nonsense I’m calling it. That’s a wrong way of describing it. But there’s so much that can be done to help me kind of walk in a technological sense.
So I’d love to see the prices of these things coming down away from experimentation in an expensive lab for one person to available for people with advanced MS. Full stop. #00:36:47#
Nele Handwerker: Yeah. Both very good things and I would really love to see that happening.
Farewell
Finally, what message of hope or encouragement would you like to share with individuals living with progressive MS?
Mark Webb: With progressive MS? Well, I said it’s shitty, but it’s manageable. I think the important thing is to look at one live in today. You can always find something, a happy five minutes, a happy program to watch, a happy meal. A happy meal, that’s a McDonald’s thing. But I didn’t mean that. A happy meal. I zip wired, I said I indoor skydive. Until very recently I played wheelchair rugby. I used to play proper rugby, grownup rugby. But there’s going to be always opportunities, but you have to look for them. You have to look for the charities that provide opportunities. You just can’t sink into your sofa and not exercise and drink and feel sorry for yourself. I know it’s difficult, but I just find being positive relatively easy for the reasons I’ve already outlined. And it’s honestly not so bad. #00:38:19#
Nele Handwerker: Yes. And the one with your skydiving indoor, sorry for coughing, it’s really a nice one. I mean, you need now a few assistants, but still you have that feeling of skydiving. You have to concentrate on the positive things. And as you said, good food. #00:38:46#
Mark Webb: So that’s right. #00:38:47#
Nele Handwerker: Good talks with other people, with lovely people, good jokes, good music. Sorry for that. Yeah, lots of things.
How and where can interested people find you online?
Mark Webb: Well, if they find me on LinkedIn, that’s where I’m most active. So I guess the easiest way is to look up Mark Webb and shift.ms. And I’m sure that would come up even though I left them recently. I get a bit left-wing political on Twitter or X. That’s @Mark_Webb underscore. And on Instagram I’m @Mark Webb 99. And finally, I don’t blog so much now, but I still am active. I blog at onemanandhiscatheters.com, which I hope shows the openness and a bit of humor that I use. The reason I chose that name was there used to be a sheep herding competition on TV, which was one man and his dog. That’s the heritage of that bad joke that dates back to the 80s. #00:40:11#
Nele Handwerker: Okay. Nice one. Yes. And I know all of them, I think, except for your blog. But I will link all of it in the show notes and of course in the blog article. Mark, thank you very much. Thank you. Not just for that interview, thank you for all the efforts you are putting into visibility of people with disabilities and for having equal life and not being stared, not being left out of society. I mean, you are doing so much and really big, big thank you. And I will follow you. Of course everybody out there, it’s really worthwhile following Mark and combining the often hard life living with progressive MS, but with the humoristic approach and it helps so much. So thanks a lot and I hope the development will be good and progression can be stopped or at least slowed down seriously. That would be so lovely. #00:41:17#
Mark Webb: Thank you. But I think it’s unlikely and I’m fine with that. I honestly am. And when is this going out, roughly? #00:41:27#
Nele Handwerker: It’s going out in end of September. #00:41:32#
Mark Webb: Oh. Well, then I can tell you that I am appearing on the runway of London Fashion Week in mid-September in some adapted four wheelchair clothing, a purple three-piece suit. So by the time this goes out I will have been on stage at London Fashion Week. #00:41:58#
Nele Handwerker: Fantastic. And I will try to link that one of course as well, because…put that later on the blog article as I will prepare it right now. But yeah. Sounds good. Thank you very much. Bye-Bye. #00:42:09#
Mark Webb: Thank you very much. #00:42:10#
Nele Handwerker: I hope you enjoyed the interview. And maybe got inspired by Mark to be loud as well, and to fight for your rights to be part of society wherever you live. I know it is not easy, and Mark mentions that for women it took at least a hundred years, and yet we still not have full equality, but it doesn’t matter. I mean, we have to fight for it. Or if you prefer a different wording, ask for our rights and do it in a very charming way, that is fine as well. By the way, next time there will be a solo episode on cognitive disorders in multiple sclerosis, when the mind goes on strike. Cognitive issues, unfortunately, are known to many of us. And therefore, I think it’s always good to know what is possible and what can be done. And yeah, I hope you tune in again and hear you next time. #00:43:06#
See you soon and try to make the best out of your life,
Nele
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